175 | Ellen Rohr: Brand, Basics, and What Ride-Alongs Really Teach You

Justin Deese: This is so fun. We're getting to hang out with Ellen, who came down to Home Service Hoorah and rocked the stage.

Ellen Rohr: So happy about this. Wasn't it fun? Is there a nicer audience in the world? So easy, so fun, all leaning in — what a great community.

Justin Deese: I feel like we've been a part of a lot of events, and there are different kinds. There's the very large ones — Pantheon puts on this big party, lots of energy — but for us, we wanted something very intimate. There were roughly 150 people in the room, but it didn't feel like it — it felt like twenty.

Ellen Rohr: And everybody leaning in, paying attention, playing the games, participating. It was really amazing. And we get to see each other here — we've known each other forever, and it takes a convention to bring us together. So I'm happy about that.

Justin Deese: I'm going to do a shot in a second — I don't want to mess it up now. But as you can see, we've got an umbrella, white sand behind us, our feet are in the sand, and the ocean's right there. If you hear any weird sounds, it's probably a bird or a kid playing, not screaming. But let me ask you — you've done a ton of podcasts. Have you ever done one like this?

Ellen Rohr: No, this is a first. High five. I'm liking this vibe a lot — I predict it's the first of many.

Justin Deese: It's not so formal, right?

Ellen Rohr: And it's so beautiful. I'm glad you're going to take a shot, because we're just looking out over turquoise water and white sand, and my hotel room's right there. Loving it.

Justin Deese: We weren't totally sure how this year's event would come together. Jered has the Wealthy Plumber group, and we ran a virtual CFO summit last year. We both had smaller events, both in Pensacola, both at the same hotel —

Ellen Rohr: — same everything.

Justin Deese: Right. So when we wrapped those up, we thought, that was a lot of work — what if we did it together? Last time we were downtown Pensacola; this time we wanted to be at the beach, and bring people out to enjoy Pensacola Beach. So thank you for coming.

Ellen Rohr: My pleasure. I just love you guys — I love Jered and what he does with the Wealthy Plumber. I'm really impressed, and he's one of my super ambassadors.

Justin Deese: Yeah.

Ellen Rohr: He and I have gotten to know each other a bit.

Justin Deese: He's got an incredible group — the number of people he helps. He's just Jered.

Ellen Rohr: Yeah, and that's how I got turned on to all this. Let me tell you what I do — I've had a lot of jobs, I'm an old woman with a lot of history, and I'm absolutely in love with this industry. I love Zoom Drain — the company I founded, and I'm still one of the owners — but I'm not working there day to day right now. They're headquartered in Philadelphia, and my kid had a baby, so I moved back to Utah, and it just worked out that way.

I turned to Service Titan because it's been our software for a long time at Zoom Drain, and at a lot of the companies I've worked with. I love the owners — the founders are Vahe and Ara — and all the guys we know there. Chris Hunter's not far from here, actually.

Justin Deese: He's probably right out here on his boat fishing.

Ellen Rohr: Running out of gas, Chris. So I asked him, is there a way I can help? And he said, we've got a lot of people in Service Titan who brag on us and refer people to us — could we formalize a brand ambassador program with these influencers? So that's what I'm in charge of now, and it's loose, fun, and easy.

There's a referral program connected to it that pays out for folks who end up being a good fit for Service Titan. Not everybody is, but if you're in the trades and ready to grow, it's a good move. So that's what I've been doing. And then a coworker said, "Have you met Jered Williams?" I said no, and he told me to check out his Instagram. I got on there and just started liking everything he posted — I thought, this guy is so cool and so smart. So I reached out and said, "I don't know exactly where this brand ambassador thing is going yet, but I know you're the archetype — I want you in it." And Jered said, "Okay."

Justin Deese: He's like, sure.

Ellen Rohr: One word. But every word he says is worthwhile. If you follow him — the Wealthy Plumber — he really knows a lot about how to grow a business. Right now he's growing his own, and we're all coming along for the ride.

Justin Deese: Yes.

Ellen Rohr: Very exciting. If you want to see how it's done, Jared's showing every step. It's been fun.

Justin Deese: And it's fun to watch, because people always ask, "Does he practice what he preaches?" And the answer is yes — everything he talks about is what he's actually doing in the business right now. Kristen and I were just talking about this earlier — during the event, we covered how to run a hiring event, and Jered walked through how to build a Facebook ad for recruiting. But it applies just as much to getting customers. When they launched Wahoo Plumbing, it took Jered four days to get booked out for weeks, just from Facebook ads.

Ellen Rohr: Facebook ads, done well and responded to quickly. Some people say you've got to follow through, ask the extra questions, work it in, figure it out — and there's truth to that. But it's also all about the brand. Our friend Chad Peterman — do you know Chad?

Justin Deese: I do, yeah.

Ellen Rohr: Such a good guy. I visited his shop, and he was on Instagram recently talking about how, in the age of AI, building a personal brand and a business brand matters more than ever. You're going to get outspent on PPC — you just can't keep up with the competition on ad spend. You'll need digital marketing, no question, and you guys are the experts there. But the brand is what makes the difference — when someone sees your name and thinks, "I know them, they're good, they're reliable, they've been here a while" — that's what's really going to matter in the years ahead. Your personal brand, and a business brand people can identify with and trust, is going to be the game-changer.

Justin Deese: I think guerrilla marketing is becoming the key for smaller businesses — the guys doing mailers, door hangers, chamber events, community outreach. They're doing a great job, because the bigger companies aren't focused there.

Ellen Rohr: Yeah.

Justin Deese: Which is fine — you're not going to outspend them anyway, let alone keep up with the army of people they have.

Ellen Rohr: Kissing babies, shaking hands, basically becoming the mayor of your town. Chad Peterman's company is over a hundred million now, and his BHAG — Big Hairy Audacious Goal — is two hundred million in three years. I would not bet against that guy.

Justin Deese: Neither would I.

Ellen Rohr: He operates twelve locations within about a thirty-mile radius, absolutely saturating the Indianapolis market. It's not LA or Chicago, but it's a big, competitive city, and he just stays focused on being recognized — puts himself and his brother on the truck, gets out in the community. It makes a huge difference. Tommy Mello does the same thing — his picture's on the truck, he's the guy. And Wahoo Plumbing is a great brand too, really taking their area by storm. I'm excited to see how they grow.

Justin Deese: Typically — we've sold a couple of businesses ourselves — when people sell in this space and start again, it usually takes about eighteen to twenty-four months to get back to the size they were when they sold.

Ellen Rohr: Isn't that interesting? And most people go back in after a vacation, a trip to Europe, some work on the house — and then it's, "I've got to go to work." But now they've learned so much. They'll make different mistakes, but they'll move faster. Jered said something really interesting on stage yesterday — it stopped the whole room. There was a young man, 26 years old — we love these kids so much — and he asked, "How do you avoid the mistakes?" What he really meant was, how do I not make mistakes at all, which isn't possible. It's inevitable you're going to fail sometimes.

But you don't want to make the obvious ones, or make the same one twice — that's why you go to community and conventions. We were talking about making mistakes, and Eric and Jered — quietest guy in the room, then says the smartest thing — said, because it's so risky, you should get bigger. Because bigger gives you more protection, more money to do things right. It's risky either way, so getting bigger just gives you more options to do it better.

If you run a truck-based business, the truck is the most dangerous piece of equipment you own. Things can go wrong, and your day — or your life — can change in a minute. I was on a ride-along once and watched a kid pull too much drain-cleaning cable out at once — it kinked around his arm. We both just looked at it, and it unkinked. You could see his whole life flash before his eyes. Did he do it wrong? Yes. Does that happen? It does. That's what training is for. And if you've got more resources, you can do a better job for yourself, your team, and your customers.

Justin Deese: Yesterday too — John Fay from the Blue Angels, great guy — talked about John Wooden. At practice, what's the first thing Wooden taught? How to put on your socks. This repetition of something so basic — and then you have to explain the why. If you get a blister or stub your toe, you can't do the thing, and now you're not getting better, and the team suffers. A lot of times we assume, "Sure, you know how to run a snake down a cable" —

Ellen Rohr: And the guy says —

Justin Deese: "Yeah, I know how to do that." Or they never actually got trained on it because they came from another business — and then they pull the cable out too fast and it wraps around an arm, or worse.

Ellen Rohr: A couple things about John Wooden, relating it back to that young man — teaching the basics is exactly how you avoid the mistake of putting your shoes on wrong and getting a blister that takes you out of the game. That's an out-of-the-game injury. You've got to pay attention to the basics — no matter how big you get, those are the things that matter. We were talking about SOPs last night — you need a standard operating procedure for everything, but where do you start? Sober, on time, dressed right. We use a checklist here, and we train people how to use it and edit it as needed. But those basics — have we made it clear what "on time" actually means? Is it when the clock on your phone clicks over? What presence do you need to have at that moment? You can't go too granular on the basics, but they'll take you all the way.

Justin Deese: I remember we used to tell guys "Apple time" — that specific.

Ellen Rohr: On your Apple phone.

Justin Deese: Apple time. Because they all had tablets, so if someone said "my watch says," we'd say, I don't care what your Mickey Mouse watch says — your tablet says, and that's the time we all live by.

Ellen Rohr: And we were talking about this yesterday too — I made up a rough percentage, but I heard something once from Harry Friedman at an event that really hit me: most of your time as an owner is spent correcting behaviors you never actually clarified in the first place. "Your truck is a mess." "No it's not, it's fine." "No, it's terrible." "This is the best it's ever been." Going back to the basics — that's where your community, your friends, and conventions make such a difference. Are you guys shop visitors? Do you go visit people's shops? Isn't that fun?

Justin Deese: It is so much fun.

Ellen Rohr: Do you have a story that just blew your mind?

Justin Deese: We were actually talking about one today. We're working with a lot of garage door companies now, and I really wanted to ride along on a job, because my background's plumbing and AC — I'd been around that process, but I wanted to see how garage doors worked. It was fascinating — so similar in some ways, but different with the actual equipment. That was a lot of fun. But your story about a guy never talking to you — I've never had that happen.

Ellen Rohr: Only once. I went on a ride-along, and he just never talked to me — he was mad, but not at me. I think I was just standing in for his frustration with everything in general.

Justin Deese: Do you think he saw you as a punishment, not like, "Hey, I'm going to ride along with you" — "Cool, let's go"?

Ellen Rohr: We're like that, but not everybody is. Most of the time it's not like that, but I think riding along is still so important. Let's go back to garage doors, actually — my friend Carrie Kelch has A+ Garage. They're going to close to 60 million this year, absolutely crushing it — very disciplined, very systematic, and still fun. But I've never seen so much dangerous equipment as garage doors. I work in drains — there's plenty of danger in plumbing and the trucks themselves — but these big pieces of sharp metal, these high-tension springs, you get a whole new respect. Walking into the warehouse, it's like, pay attention. It's an amazing, exciting industry.

Justin Deese: It is exciting to watch, because a lot of people who sold their plumbing or AC business and have non-competes end up saying, "I've heard about this garage door thing Tommy's making sound pretty cool — let's go do that."

Ellen Rohr: Yeah, who would've thought garage doors would be the big winner right now. And I think there's actually an advantage to not knowing the trade when you start a new company. Are you with me on that?

Justin Deese: Fun fact — I didn't come up through the trades as a technician. There were times that felt like a curse, but it turned into a blessing, because I couldn't just get in the truck and fix it myself. I had to build a system for how to get things fixed.

Ellen Rohr: There's an advantage to having street cred, for sure. But what filled that gap for me was just being in awe of how cool the work was — how amazing the technicians are, the depth of knowledge, the physical skill. I'd think, I love what you're doing — what am I doing that's getting in your way of being successful? Let's figure that out, and I'll go change it. What don't I know that I should know? Who do I need to talk to? What's something we've asked you to do that's actually dumb? And every time, it was something I had come up with myself.

Justin Deese: Right — sometimes in theory, sitting in the office, something sounds like a great idea, but in practice it's clunky and causes more harm than good. Owners forget to just ask the people doing the work: how do we lower the barrier of nonsense so you can focus on the customer? We ask technicians to do a lot — pull up to the house, park in a certain spot, knock a certain way, stand a certain way — hundreds of little action items.

Ellen Rohr: And what really matters — when you go on a ride-along and talk with a guy — my husband sometimes talks a lot, if he gets going about hydronic heat, Hot Rod — I always say Jered and Hot Rod remind me of each other, both just doing what they want to do all day. I really respect that. But it's the quiet, confident guys who make a lot of sales. You ride along thinking about all these tips and details, but really, you'd have to shoot yourself in the foot to not make a sale as a drain cleaner — who's going to send someone away when the alternative is staying with a clogged toilet? So the question becomes: what are the few things we can do to set this person up to win? That's what obsesses me. These are good people — maybe nobody ever taught them manners, or a sales process, or how to close out a project. That's our job, unless we're going to fail at it every day. When you ride along and refocus on what's really important — getting the tech and the customer to have a good experience — I got that from Harry Friedman too. At the end of the day, that's all we care about: what's happening between your technician and your customer, and how do we make that better.

Justin Deese: Simple process — we as owners overcomplicate it.

Ellen Rohr: I was doing that myself at dinner last night, sorry guys. Because it's fun, and we're into it. It's like skiing — I've had a million jobs, and one of them was ski instructor. When I was new at it, I didn't know what I was doing, so I just followed the procedure, and I gave really good lessons — someone who couldn't ski was skiing by the end of the day. But then I got obsessed with angulation and centrifugal forces and all this fancy stuff I found interesting, and my lessons got worse. I rode along with an old-timer on the ski school one day, and he gently pointed it all out — said it really just comes down to moving your center of gravity down the hill. If you do that on skis, the rest comes along. There isn't as much to it as you think. I should slow my roll a little. So, yeah — I've been humbled a bunch in my life. How about you?

Justin Deese: French fried pizza. That's what I know about.

Ellen Rohr: That helps — makes total sense. Stop and go.

Justin Deese: Well, Ellen, I appreciate you coming and hanging out. I don't want to take up any more of your time — hopefully you've got a free day.

Ellen Rohr: I always do a little work, but I do want to talk about our Titan Creator Summit. You're invited, and it's completely free — spread the word. On November 19th, Service Titan is sponsoring the first-ever Titan Creator Summit, an online event you can join from anywhere. We'll be talking with experts and newcomers, people interested in growing their brand, their message, and their "why" online. If you'd like to be an influencer, or already are, or want to be part of our brand ambassador program at Service Titan, or you create content, or you just understand how important a personal and business brand is right now — come join us. There'll be games, contests, rewards, and swag, plus some really sharp people from the industry and online. It's a chance for this community of trades influencers to get together. The only requirement is that you're in the trades and interested in building a brand. We can't wait to have you.

Justin Deese: We'll make sure to put all that information in the show notes so people can get to it, and we'll add it to the Skool community and the calendar too.

Ellen Rohr: Even when you throw a party like we did — the Wahoo, the convention — you bring people together who wouldn't normally connect. That's the intention with the Titan Creator Summit too — people out there creating great stuff, and this becomes a place to find podcast guests, be a podcast guest, collaborate on projects, or find someone to build something with. I think it's going to be a great way to bring the trades influencer community together.

Justin Deese: One of the cool things — Kristen asked at the very beginning of Hoorah, right when she was kicking things off, how many people in the room were at their first-ever conference. About fifty percent of the room raised their hand.

Ellen Rohr: Wow.

Justin Deese: How awesome is that?

Ellen Rohr: Awesome. We've got one more thing, if that's okay —

Justin Deese: No, go ahead — I'll sit here all day, we're on the beach.

Justin Deese: That's such an impressive machine. But you also don't grow a business that fast without some amazing processes and training.

Ellen Rohr: I think Tommy looks at his business as a training business that just happens to do garage doors. Training, training, training. The energy in his training room, the people running the training — and I'll tell you, his facility isn't even the best-set-up shop. Have you ever been to Any Hour?

Justin Deese: Never been.

Ellen Rohr: I used to have this belief — the older you get, the more you realize what you don't know — that your shop would eventually limit your growth. That at some point you'd have to move into a better space, get rid of hallways and closed doors, open it all up with glass. I had a really clear picture of what would help you grow. Then I went to Any Hour. They're around $125 million, and their facility is a strip mall — they've taken over a few neighboring businesses, one used to be a restaurant, one a hair salon, and they've gussied it up, painted it, made it lovely — but you basically need a thread to find your way back to where you parked. Upstairs, downstairs, around, over — the call center's clear on the other side, you practically need a cab to get there. And it absolutely works. I told Dustin Van Orman, one of our super ambassadors and an absolute peach, "You know, you could fix this layout." He said, "It's part of our charm." I said, are you worried we're not big enough here? He said, clearly it's working. I said, you win, I get it. It's really interesting to see how people make things work, and how that becomes part of their culture — even Tommy's facility, that big open space in Arizona, gives people a moment of fresh air walking from one side to the other. He's done a nice job with a weird facility.

Justin Deese: Yeah, I think that's actually two separate facilities he merged into one.

Ellen Rohr: There's a spot on the other side with offices too, but it's very functional.

Justin Deese: The training rooms — all the garages he's built out with actual equipment in them — is really brilliant.

Ellen Rohr: You mentioned this earlier — Al Levy's had a big influence on Tommy. Al Levy writes a lot of the training curriculum, and it's split between classroom and hands-on, done at your own shop, not the customer's house. Pro tip: you can practice on your own plumbing, your own garage door, whatever's in your own facility, in real time. It gets more elaborate as you grow, but you can start today with what you've got.

Justin Deese: You don't need a seventy-thousand-square-foot building to start training two techs.

Ellen Rohr: You could run a cable and jet down your own drain. This is so fun — thank you for playing. How long have we been talking?

Justin Deese: I have no idea. Not a clue.

Ellen Rohr: You guys are way too relaxed about that.

Justin Deese: Listen, we had so many people during the event ask, "Can I have the agenda?" No.

Ellen Rohr: You didn't give out an agenda?

Justin Deese: It was basically, here's when we start, here's when lunch is, here's when we stop.

Ellen Rohr: Keith Curio doesn't do that either — because I don't know where we're going to go.

Justin Deese: That was part of our thing too.

Ellen Rohr: That's why I don't like to take someone else's time — I was very sensitive to that.

Justin Deese: Patrick Lang, from Business Modification Group, was our main sponsor.

Ellen Rohr: I heard he was fantastic.

Justin Deese: He really is. He does such a good job explaining the selling process, not overly technical — there are a lot of brokers out there who get too into the weeds, but Patrick's a good old boy who just tells you what you've got to do. He did a 35–40 minute Q&A and kept asking, "Am I good?" I told him, as long as they're asking questions, stay up there. That's the whole point — let them.

Ellen Rohr: I've had it happen where suddenly my time's down to five minutes, and I'm fine with that — I'll get everyone back on track. I like to start on time and end on time; I've learned that from every conference I've been to, because I always think about who's going to lose time if I run late. That was nice, and then I got to tell my story.

Justin Deese: Panel-style — that's why we do a lot of panels.

Ellen Rohr: I was texting Kristen during my own panel — texting the people I was supposed to be meeting with, saying "I've got to go." There were eight people from Service Titan waiting in a room, and I was the one who'd called the meeting. I told them, "I'm so sorry" — and they were nice about it, bumped it back half an hour, and I made it work. I felt rude, but I had to go — they said, "You called the meeting," and I said, "I know, but I've got to go."

Justin Deese: You're like, "But I'm out here with these beach people..."

Ellen Rohr: No, I wanted to hang with you guys too — the panel was great, and John is amazing. I talked to him a bit last night, and he's going places — really inspired to start a business.

Justin Deese: He is. He said he's now in charge of the P&L, since the company he works for just got bought by a private equity group. He does something in aviation.

Ellen Rohr: Something he'd kill us for talking about.

Justin Deese: Yeah, he's like, "I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you — don't tell anyone."

Ellen Rohr: Ha, telling anyway.

Justin Deese: And now he just ran for state representative — I think he won by about eighty percent.

Ellen Rohr: Good for him.

Justin Deese: Super good guy.

Ellen Rohr: I really enjoyed him — humble, nice, fun, respectful.

Justin Deese: And you never know — he went to the Naval Academy, played football for Navy.

Ellen Rohr: And he flew the planes. Crazy.

Justin Deese: Yeah, super impressive. We know we're definitely doing this again next year — I'm excited, and I hope you can get it on your calendar.

Ellen Rohr: I'm coming. Just let me know when, and I'll be here.

Justin Deese: I'm guessing we'll do it around the same time of year — it's usually not this hot here.

Ellen Rohr: This is hot even for this area.

Justin Deese: It's typically a bit cooler in September.

Ellen Rohr: Yes. This is absolutely gorgeous, though.